Show Transcript
This is the John Hallett podcast with John Hallett. Because the way we’re living, we need to change it. Make it change today. And all learn from failure. Maybe they just wanted it a little bit more than you. That’s probably the fact. And now your host, John Hallett.
Hey, everybody, welcome back to the John Hallett podcast. Today we’re talking about the law of self defense. We’re going to jump right into it. But first, hey, don’t forget you can sponsor or help the podcast out tremendously by going to suckless co for all your performance supplements. That’s our brand of supplements.
Because we were tired of supplements. That sucked. And as always, you can get online training on our online portal, clear Skyd. And you can shop the store, shop dot rmsdf.com, buy a t shirt, get a suck less, spread the word. You guys need to get out there and train.
And now we’re talking about the real hard fight, the law. How’s it going, guys? I’m joined with Charles and Derek today. You guys want to give a quick intro?
Sure. Yeah, absolutely. I am the one and only for all the students that listen to this. The one and only, uh, Derek Porter, a, uh, student now here at RMSDF for a little over three years. Brown belt. And I think that’s enough people, people.
That listen, know me, maybe not give them a little bit of your.
Okay. All right. So, 20 plus years in the security industry. I’ve ran two successful security companies. I’ve sold both of them. Done some consultation with Charles, uh, here. Joint venture with Charles here. Got, uh, six years executive protection, four years marines. Did some time with the, uh, private military as well.
Nice.
Charles.
Thanks for having me, Charles. Ah, Feldman. I, um, been a Colorado attorney for over 30 years now. Went to law school through the marine corps. Worked, uh, uh, for the DEA after that, and then ran my own law firm, uh, for about 1520 years. I’ve tried about every kind of crime known to mankind.
So either prosecuted or defended pretty much everything there is out there. Uh, capital murder and defended numerous, uh, homicide cases here in Colorado. So, look forward to talking about self defense.
Yeah, it’s always important topic, the hard aspect. And it’s something we’ve, uh, been really trying to focus on the last couple years of being on the right side. We always say we don’t want to become the bad guy, but we’ve been really trying to up the ante on that, um, with our students and seeing them sometimes be just too aggressive and going, hey, now, you might be becoming the bad guy here.
You had reasonable means of retreat. Let’s focus on that. And, you know, just being safer sometimes that, you know, getting away from a knife might be just the best thing versus doing a martial arts of whatever sort, um, disarm and forcing, like, feeling like they have to finish it.
Yeah, so I think, um, a real, maybe easy way to ease into the conversation is that. You know, where a lot of our students are protectors of nature that, um, come in, whether it’s the mom wanting to protect her kids when dad’s not there, or any of those numerous circumstances of coming to the defense of others as a protector.
Um, what are some of the risks of me jumping into something where, you know, a guy is beating up another guy, it’s not even the damsel in distress. It’s looking like this guy’s getting beaten up, and I engage into this fight.
Yeah. Self defense in Colorado is actually, um, a very, I think, workable law. Colorado is a very common law based state. Um, so every state has its own set of rules and its own set of ideas, uh, for how that culture, uh, runs. But Colorado, being a western state, I think, uh, is generally a very enlightened, conservative mindset towards self defense.
Um, so before we kind of jump to defending another, you really got to analyze, it’s the same analysis for you to defend someone else as it is to defend yourself. Um, so whatever the law is going to look at, it’s going to apply that same standard of whether you could have applied to yourself if you’re going to step in to help someone else.
Um, so when you think of self defense, Derek and I have kind of joked and talked about this, but ultimately, you’re in front of a jury. You know, a jury is going to be deciding whether that was a reasonable action, uh, on your part or unreasonable. Um, and so it really kind of comes down to what we would describe as an objective standard.
It’s not going to be how you felt it’s going to be in Colorado. This sort of reasonable man standard is what the law calls it. And so always, I would say, when I’m talking about self defense, think of a jury of twelve. Um, how are they going to analyze what you did?
The decisions that you made? Your decisions don’t have to be perfect. Um, they don’t even have to be right. You know, there’s no Monday morning quarterbacking to think, oh, I thought there was a weapon. It turned out not to be. Um, it’s not that kind of standard. It’s really, in that moment, in that situation, did you make a reasonable decision?
Um, and so that’s how I would apply everything that we talk about with self defense, was it reasonable? And as long as you can walk away from that saying, I did what was reasonable, um, you know, my conduct, the amount of force that I applied, um, what I did or didn’t do, if a jury feels that’s reasonable, you get the defense of self defense, you’re going to be found not guilty of anything the state would try to bring against you.
Um, the other aspect to that is you can only use an amount of force. Again, that’s reasonable. So you’re only going to be able to allow yourself to apply an amount of force that is coming against you. Reciprocating. Yeah. So it, again, it’s that reasonable standard, an equivalent standard.
And so as you’re jumping into defending others, you absolutely have the right to defend others. And in fact, the law wants you to defend others. That’s part of being a citizen. Um, so we’re not going to punish you because you did the right thing as a citizen.
Yep. Now, what about this? This makes me think of, you know, a lot of times in grappling base BJJ, you know, wrestling, but mainly the argument against, like, a striking art, and I wouldn’t even say Krav magazine art, but, um, a self defense system that has stand up striking, because we’re not just stand up, but the, the argument always with those martial arts are you can’t regulate your punch.
You don’t know how hard you’re hitting that, that guy. Now, I can regulate a choke easier than I can regulate a punch when you’re saying reasonable. Well, if Derek’s a strong guy, hey, I just threw the punch and it does some real damage to me. I mean, I think there’s just a case recently in California that a drunken disorderly guy, um, punched the manager trying to escort him out, and the guy hit the concrete and died.
You know, I think that’s, you know, some of the arguments against striking people in self defense. But you’re saying, hey, it’s a re. I was trying to do the reasonable thing. What would the law be if I really, you know, hit a guy and he hits the concrete and he’s got a brain injury because he fell.
But I just threw a punch, you know, threw my punch trying to.
You’ve got two aspects of the law there, and I’ve actually tried a case in Colorado very similar to that. But number one is you have to use a degree of force. You’re allowed to use a degree of force equivalent to the threat that you’re facing. So that’s the first thing you got to think.
And, you know, the classic is someone is on the street giving you shit, you’re not allowed reasonable to pull out your gun and shoot them. That’s not an equivalent amount of force. So that’s kind of an easy dynamic to analyze. Again, twelve people on a jury are not going to find that was a reasonable to protect yourself or another, um, when you’re talking about consequences that happen after you apply self defense.
Um, and I tried that. I represented a client who got into a fight in the middle of a crosswalk, threw one punch, happened to be the lucky one who connected on his punch, um, and knocked the guy out cold, fell back, cracked his head and died. Uh, so it was a murder trial.
Um, the law will say yes. You have to reasonably anticipate you’re responsible for what you could reasonably foresee. Um, and so that really, again, becomes another question for the jury. Was that, could you anticipate that someone was going to crack their head on the pavement, um, or not?
What was the outcome of that trial?
Um, the outcome was a hung jury on that particular aspect of. And again, a lot of factors go into how reasonable that was, um, because they both came from the street corner and met in the middle of the street. And so you get into, who’s the initial aggressor? Mutual compact.
Who started it? Were you really defending yourself or were you instigating, you know, again, it can be very complicated and a very fluid.
Situation, and then the fall to the concrete and, yeah, it sucks that the guy died. It’s like unforeseen circumstances. Like, well, of course, that, uh, probably wasn’t the intention of the guy that threw the pun, right?
I mean, even if it was unarmed. I get attacked. Guy throws a giant haymaker at me, I defend and counter attack, and now he falls. The same scenario and diese. Was that reasonable to, uh, see, again, Rob, another point.
You are not entitled to self defense if you are the aggressor. So just remember that there, uh, there is a bright line in the law that says you’re only going to get that defense again. Like you’re saying, if you’re attacked. But in a fight, as we all know, that can change.
You know, someone can say, I’m done. And now you become the aggressor. You can now cross over to, you’re the bad guy, no longer the good guy. Defending yourself.
Yeah.
It’s even that we, we use it in the kid, the kids and, like, the little boys. Well, yeah, let’s go. I’m like, no, don’t say that. Don’t say that. Like, stay away from me. I don’t want to fight you. I don’t want to fight you. Not bring it on or any other kind of guy comment.
Absolutely.
You got, you just agreed to fight that person and didn’t know. It’s no longer self defense. Yeah, when you agree or go, let’s go. You gonna put any of that stuff.
So the aggressor, in a way, has control over the fight, in a way, in the sense that when the aggressor stops, you have to stop. Or now you’re breaking the law, or now it’s switching roles are switching roles is switching.
Now the rules are a switch.
And I’ve done several cases like that where it started. One way. And then it stopped. One clearly said, I’m getting my ass kicked here. I’m done. And what started as self defense has now become, oh, no, I’m not done with you now. Now you’ve pissed me off.
Yeah, people get upset.
Now it’s switched. Now you’re the actual aggressor and the person who started the fight. Is entitled to self defense.
Yeah, it makes me think of. Now, I can think of a bunch of scenarios, but right away, the attacker, I attack you, you overpower me. I’m on the ground. I want to evade. I’m done. I’ve told you I’m done. You beat me up. I want to evade, but now you’re keeping me there, you know, like, you’re waiting.
You’ve called the cops. You’re waiting for the cops to come, right. The private person’s arrest. Now I want to leave now. The, uh, the whole, like, okay, can you keep me there? If I bolt and take off, can you pursue me? Can you stop me from there? I mean, I gave up and stopped.
Now I’m afraid for my life as the bad guy they get that got beat up. Now can I get up and go? Like, what are you, what are you able to do legally now?
Well, again, we’re looking at a couple different aspects, but I don’t think you’re entitled to self defense. Now, if someone’s trying to run away, they’re clearly not a threat to you. If they’re trying to get away, you.
Gotta let them go.
Well, now you’re into another sort of an, you know, you’re kind of the good citizen. You’re preventing someone else from getting away. That can be okay.
Okay.
But now the analysis is, what kind of force are you allowed to use to prevent someone, someone from getting away? That’s where you see a lot of liability, why people or managers are told, don’t ever get physical with someone who’s stealing from a store, because they don’t want that kind of civil liability, all that liability that comes with who knows where that’s going to go.
Um, but if we’re purely talking self defense, if someone’s trying to get away from you, you’re probably not going to be getting a self defense, you know, analysis anymore because they’re not a threat. You don’t even meet the first threshold there.
And you’re not a cop.
You’re not a cop. Yeah. You’re not there to enforce the laws. Right.
Yeah, it’s that whole, I mean, something. I don’t know who was talking about. It might have been you or stan of, you know, detaining somebody as a citizen.
Yeah.
And it makes me think, there was a couple years back, I was driving here in Castle Rock, and this car almost went off the road, was on the other side of the road. Luckily, nobody was coming. And then a car passed, like, I don’t know if this person’s okay.
You know, obviously look like a drunk driver. But then they stopped at a stoplight, and I was like, it turned green. I’m waiting to turn where they. What’s going on here? Like, this person’s, you know, obviously they’ve got to be drunk, you know, like, or they’re having some sort of episode.
I got out, and the. The girl was just at the wheel, just blank. Um, I went in front of the car. I was like, hey, she got me. And I was like, hey, stop. Like, are you okay? Are you okay? And she was just out there. And when I jumped back into my jeep, I called her license plate in and said to the dispatch.
I’m like, you know, I tried to stop her for a second. She was gonna, she’s gonna kill somebody. I felt like she got lucky once because she’s on the wrong side of the road. Like, you can’t detain her. You can’t. You can’t stop her. Well, I felt somebody was gonna die, so I felt like trying to get out of my vehicle and going, are you okay?
Like, maybe we should shut this thing down. They kind of gave me a hard time as a citizen for getting out of my car and attempting to just see if they’re okay and go, hey, I don’t think you should be driving here. And it could have been. She could have been on pills.
Who knows what? It could have been a, you know, a mental episode or who knows what. But she, uh, didn’t do anything. Get out of the car. And I was like, all right, I’m calling 911. I’m not obviously gonna take her physically out of the car, but they gave me a hard time for that.
For. Yeah, yeah, professionals, you know, whether it’s dispatch or cops themselves, uh, trying to do the right thing, and then you get mad dog later on. We have a close mutual friend that we were just talking about earlier, uh, his breaking, uh, and entering. Well, his front door was unlocked, but, you know, it was this private home.
I think you remember this scenario. A drug addict, I believe he was 22 years old. He was out of it, uh, looking for either money or drugs. Wasn’t necessarily trying to hurt anyone. Um, found a closet or a bedroom. It’s a big house, right? Excuse me. And kept, uh, to himself.
Was being a little bit neurotic in the room. And then, I think, eventually passed out or fell asleep. Uh, our mutual friend held him at gunpoint until the cops arrived. And then after the report was taken in the aftermath and this 22 year old drug addict was taken away.
One of the cops, it was a Denver cop, too, gave our friend a hard time, literally saying, like, you know, you’re well within your right to have killed him. Like, we’re actually surprised you didn’t just pull the trigger. When, at the end of the day, I was thinking, and it messed with his head.
M. I was like, you probably. You just gave that 22 year old kid his life back. Like, now he can. He wasn’t an immediate threat. He scared the housekeeper. Like, scared the hell out of her. Uh, but he wasn’t an immediate threat. Like, you know, now he’s gonna, well, hopefully, like, get cleaned up, and he’s got a second chance.
Like, yeah.
You did the right thing.
Yeah.
So. But he law enforcement, like, kind of gave him mad dogged him for it. I was like, what? Are you kidding me? Yeah. Crazy.
Yeah. I couldn’t live with myself. If you could just detain, like, hold him at gunpoint.
Right.
Even if you’re justified. It’s kind of would be. Do I have a reasonable means of retreat? Even if I’m in my house?
Yeah.
I mean, well, Colorado is a. It’s a non retreat state. Um, we’ve heard of states similar, like Florida. That was a big case. The news. So in Colorado, you have no obligation to retreat, ever.
Stand your ground.
Right? Stand your ground. In Colorado we call stand your ground. So whatever the situation is, you are lawfully entitled to stand wherever you are and confront the situation you’re having to deal with. So no one’s ever going to punish you because you could have walked away. No one’s ever going to get to see, well, you had the right to leave or run through your back door or get in your car and drive away.
That’s not going to be the analysis. Um, we’re also famous for the make my day law. You know, Colorado calls defensive home.
Those are two different laws. Make my day stand the ground.
They are two different laws really?
Okay.
Two different laws. Correct. So what, what self defense does in your home is we’ve escalated the self defense to give you even more self defense coverage when you’re inside your own home and when you kind of, again, go back. I always say common sense, just think about common sense.
A jury of twelve thinking about this. When you’re in your home, that should be the most protected place you can ever be. Um, you should never have to worry about in your home, in your bedroom, in your motel room, in your trailer. Um, ever being assaulted or threatened. So if someone is unlawfully inside your dwelling, um, the self defense that escalates.
You’Re now allowed to use deadly force if you’re feeling threatened, no matter how slight. So if someone’s breaking into your home to commit a crime, you’re authorized to use deadly force. Or if you’re threatened, no matter how. Slight, you’re authorized to use deadly force inside your home. That’s going to be a very different standard.
Out on a street corner, even out on your front porch. On your back porch. Not the same standard. It’s got to be literally inside the dwelling.
Does that extend to the inside of your vehicle or you mentioned a hotel?
No, it does not extend to that. It will have to be a dwelling. A dwelling, physical dwelling.
Okay.
Hotel room.
A hotel room will count as your dwelling.
Yeah, I didn’t know that.
Or a mobile home.
Trailer.
If you live in a trailer, a.
Lot of rapes happen in hotels, motels. That’s a big number. So that’s, you know, good for females to know. It’s the same, same standard as in your house.
When you’re standard traveling somewhere and you.
Know, you’re off on business or whatever and you’re in a hotel room alone.
Yeah, I thought stand your ground and make my day were the same. I didn’t know they were different. No.
Make my day is your home and stand your ground. Is you’re on a street corner, um, and someone’s giving you shit. You don’t have to walk away. You can stand your ground, but now I know.
Some states, I’m gonna forget the legal term for it, like your porch is encountered in Colorado. Whatever your front, you’re on your front.
Step, it is not, not for make my day.
Okay.
You have the same self defense on your porch.
I can stay in my ground.
Yeah, we go back to the beginning, you know, is it reasonable, do you use the same level of force as being threatened against you? Um, so if it’s words, that’s kind of where I say, you know, self defense is a, it’s like a ladder, you know, somebody is in your face.
Um, and it’s only words reasonably. Can you use a knife or a gun? No, that’s not the same amount of threat, um, you get into. If somebody’s pulling a weapon, you can’t see the weapon. Again, we’re not going to Monday morning quarterback you. So now that force has escalated, so now maybe you’re allowed deadly force because you, if you truly felt I was going to have deadly force used against me, I felt threatened.
My life was threatened then. That’s where deadly force is authorized.
I got a what if for you. Not complicated at all, but okay, you’re in your home, nice sunny day, kind of like today, but minus the 90 plus degree heat, right? You open the front and back door to get a nice breeze going. The doors are open to your home, not unlike if you were to keep the windows open.
Not an invitation for people to just come in. But the doors are open. Now how does that change? Somebody walks in.
Well, they have to be unlawfully in your home. Okay, so just because your doors are open never gives someone permission to enter your residence.
Yeah. That’s not an invite.
That’s not an invite.
Yeah.
So again, we’d get to the next standard is. So are they unlawfully in your home? Yes. If you didn’t invite them in and they walked in. Um, we get to the scenario. Well, what if it’s the ups driver who’s walked in through your threshold? Are they unlawfully in your home?
Yes. Does that mean you get to shoot them? Well, again, we go to the next step. Do you reasonably believe, uh, that you’re threatened? That’s probably where you would fail. What was the threat?
Yeah, he’s carrying some man brown. Hey, Mister Jones.
Got a uniform on?
Yeah. What was the threat? You know, you would have to convince a jury of twelve that you felt threatened by that in order to use deadly force.
Yeah, yeah, it makes me think there’s so many things going through my head. Now what about a scenario where you have a woman on a date, and they do the classic come in for coffee. And now he was invited into the home. At some point, she feels uncomfortable, asks him to leave, doesn’t feel he gets aggressive with her.
Is that the same like I asked you to leave, you were invited in, but now the. I’m feeling uncomfortable and I’m asking to leave. And they get physical, touchy, grabbing. What is.
Yeah. If you’re invited into, uh, premises, you’re now lawfully there. But as soon as that invite has been revoked, you’re now not. No longer there. So just because I say I’d like you to leave doesn’t mean instantly because there’s no physical way. But I. You now need to leave.
Otherwise, you’re unlawfully in that dwelling. That’s just kind of an easy way to understand.
Yeah. And that makes it simple. You can. You can see, you know, a party and somebody gets out of hand, and now you’ve been asked to leave.
Yeah, but now that’s good to know. You can revoke the invite and you can steer them, like, okay, so now if they’re not putting their jacket, they’re.
Not moving in that direction. Right. You kind of clearly get changed. Yeah, they’re not leaving. They’re now unlawfully in the presence. They’re actually escalating. They’re now being more confrontational. That’s not someone who is exiting.
Okay. It’s good to know.
Yeah. That’s how you get.
Next time you get out of hand.
As a lawyer, you be like, I have withdrawn your lawfulness to be in my dwelling.
Try that with your spouse. Hey, hey, settle down. I’m uninviting.
I’m uninviting you here. That wouldn’t work with my wife. Um, no, that’s good, because I can see a lot of people are just for women and their safety and how, you know, reasonably defending themselves is always a, you know, hard line with a male being bigger and stronger for them.
And when, you know, at what point is always the tough one for them of when can they access their firearm or if they’re carrying a knife or whatever it may be. When can they smash them with an algene bottle? Um, because they’re being overpowered and there was an improvised weapon in the environment.
I always feel like that’s tricky for men as well. But even for women, when you’re already.
In a physical confrontation, the law is not going to nitpick. Pick that apart. In my experience, um, I think it’s a really good law. It works far more times than it doesn’t. The only times what we usually hear the law doesn’t work are those very rare cases. They’re very unusual fact patterns.
Um, most of the time, when self defense works, as it should, we never even hear about it. You know, the Das dismiss those cases. They don’t file those charges. Um, if you’re in a physical confrontation, you’re already in self defense mode. You’re full entitled to what the law gives you to defend yourself, however that looks like.
And as you guys know, as professional, close to professional athletes, um. Who teach this? You know, you’re, you’re. That’s a very fluid situation. You know, a. A physical confrontation can go very quickly from a one to a ten.
Um, yeah. Being overpowered by a bigger, stronger person and feeling they’re justified to go to a weapon to defend themselves again, a.
Jury’S going to be like, was his reaction reasonable? You know, when he says he felt in fear of his life, do the circumstances support that? Well, he was on the ground with the man’s hands around his neck. Yeah. A reasonable person would fear for their life in that situation.
That’s why he used deadly force or escalated.
Yeah. Or for a woman, like, if it was, you know, uh, you know, a kind of a date rape scenario where the guy’s getting handsy, he’s trying to take off her pants, she’s saying no, and he’s being overpowered and she believes she’s going to be raped if she doesn’t defend herself with a higher force option because she couldn’t get this guy off of her with strikes.
And now she goes to a weapon there. Yeah.
You would have no difficulty defending that.
So rape is deadly force, without a doubt. Very, very quickly to that reciprocated deadly force. Yeah. Like, period. Yeah.
I mean, you, again, put yourself in that situation. It’s such an intimate assault. Um, you know, again, that’s gonna be one of those that escalates so quickly.
Yeah. I mean, the things happen so fast, even in scenarios that we do that seem slow to the person that was in the scenario. They don’t feel it was slow, but the bystanders always seem like that was a pretty low intensity attack. It didn’t seem. I mean, we’ll get bad comments just doing slow work on YouTube of, uh, you know, you name it.
I forget the last person get offended. I’m like, don’t read the comments on. On the video that you’re in because they’re just gonna say something mean, but, you know, oh, they’re slow. You know, that looked like you were dancing or whatever, but when you’re in that little altercation in the gym, you know, it’s happening.
Those things happen so fast just in the gym versus, you know, I always like it when they, you know, put somebody, um, in a scenario that was similar to, you know, kind of the classic, you know, let’s put you in that scenario that the law enforcement officer was in, are you shooting?
And, you know, the same person that said the officer was, you know, shouldn’t have been doing it. They get amped up and I, you know, they’re doing the same exact thing the law enforcement officer was doing. They feared for their life, and it was happening so fast. Yeah, I think that’s what a lot of people, you know, outside of it, that have no training, kinda don’t understand that, you know?
Yeah, it looks all. You should be able to handle that, but a skilled person, I know pretty quickly that somebody’s overpowering me and. You’re like, I’m not in a good spot. This guy’s freaking strong, you know, mess around with Derek, and I’m like, okay, I’m just going to wait for him to do something, get himself in a mistake.
But he’s freaking strong and overpowering me. I’m just in a safety position a lot of times, just waiting for him, waiting for my opportunity to counter attack him because I can feel that he’s going to overpower me no matter what I do, so I better just protect myself. And I think the, you know, a lot of people don’t realize that and how being in that scenario, like you said, we’re not going to armchair quarterback you, but everybody does in the NFL and go, oh, my gosh, that guy’s terrible.
But it’s such a different thing being on the field than in, in a scenario where you’re having to make that, that call. I think you had kind of mentioned, you know, you feel like they’re going for a gun. What if it’s a toy gun? You reasonably believed that it was a gun and you were in fear for your life, so they’re not gonna quarterback you on.
Well, it turned out it wasn’t a real gun, but it certainly looked like he was going for a gun.
Exactly.
Even. Yeah. Back to your point. Like, I’m overpowering you. You’re simply not winning the fight. Now you’re genuinely in fear of your life. You can’t defuse it. I don’t have weapons. But now you’re to the point where you’re deathly afraid and he pulls a knife or a gun and uses it on me.
It’s, I think, understandably justified. I absolutely could have taken it to a level where I could have killed him. So even if I’m unarmed, if it’s got, you know, it’s, it’s getting out of hand. And that’s where things, you know, where the story, it’s only a one sided. Story because the other person’s dead.
Let’s say you’re alone in your home. Like this person was out of control. We fought for several minutes. I was losing. I grabbed a knife and sliced them. Open, and now they’re gone. It’s like ultimately you’re afraid for your life. It keeps escalating. You can’t defuse it. A jury should understand that.
The DA should understand that, right?
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
It doesn’t have to be quite as.
Complicated, and it’s really not very complicated. It’s a very, uh, old legal standard. Uh, it works very well. It makes a lot of sense. Um, it’s nothing anyone should be afraid of. Um, you know, as far as the law of self defense, um, it’s actually on your side. You know, it empowers you.
Colorado is a great state. It empowers you to stand your ground, to protect your home, to protect your family, to protect who’s ever in the car with you. Um, protect yourself. So it’s. It’s a very functional, um, defense. I think it works very well in my experience.
Yeah. More reason to not, uh, get in a confrontation. Yeah.
So it’s.
Yeah, avoid.
Avoid. So it would be. I’m t. I’m a concealed carrier. Holder for all our firearms guys and girls. I’m getting punched. I’m getting overwhelmed. There’s no standard of, well, you got to take ten punches. I’m getting overwhelmed. I’m getting hit two, three, four times. Am I justified to go to my firearm?
There again, the use of deadly force is going to be that standard of, um. Are you in fear for your life? So self defense against, like we said in the beginning, it’s an escalating defense. You know, if you’re in fear for your safety, um, that’s different than fear for your life.
I may be in your face and I may be very threatened by that. I don’t know that I’m in fear for my life because you’re talking smack to me. Um, you know, so at some point that escalates in your scenario to wherever hands are now on you. You’re feeling strength, you’re feeling what’s the environment around you?
Are there others? Is there anyone to protect you? Are there cops standing there? Um, are you alone? Um, where is this happening? So all of those factors are going to go into someone determining, when you say, I felt afraid for my life, was that reasonable? You know, is he full of shit or was he really afraid for his life?
That all those circumstantial factors are going to go into us deciding whether that was reasonable? Because that’s the standard for you to now pull your gun and use deadly force.
I know you got something fast.
Marines, uh, fleet anti terrorism security team. And then of course, really, the SOCOM community as a whole more, uh, often than not have to. I had to do this. You have to legitimately memorize the definition of deadly force because in a lot of the scenarios that we put in, deadly force is going to be a factor.
And, uh, obviously, military combat scenarios are different, but there’s some key words in that definition that definitely cross over the civilian world. Touch exactly on what you were saying. And its deadly force is that force which a person uses, uh, to cause death or serious bodily harm, or which a reasonable and prudent person.
So in other words, a person sane and of sound mind is considered likely to create a substantial risk of causing death or serious bodily harm. So the key words there being creating a substantial risk of causing death or serious bodily harm, they didn’t actually execute with deadly force, but there was a substantial risk of it.
No, that’s spot on.
And that crosses right over into the.
Civilian world where Colorado would be. And I think for, you know, more people like yourselves who are trained. You know, who have skills, you know, maybe versus the rest of the population who don’t have those skills, you’re probably going to be held to a higher standard because you do know moves and strikes and blows, like you just said, have the reasonable likelihood of causing death or serious bodily harm.
Yeah, that’s exactly what I had just written down because I didn’t want to lose my train of thought if we went sideways. I know a lot of students are concerned with that exact thing, that they’re trained. I mean, there was a, uh, guy, security guard not too long ago in the news, and he was doing mma, and they.
He’s a trained fighter, and they brought in his coach and said, this guy’s a newbie. He’s terrible. Uh, but I know a lot of our students, like, hey, I’m. I’m in this video doing whatever. Am I. Is this going to be held against me? I was like, well, you’re trained.
You’re going to be held to a bit more standard than the untrained person. Could you have gotten yourself out? I think we had a situation, uh, in class the other day. I’m like, hey, could you have gotten away from that guy? Now it got bad. It was, um, a guy and a girl grappling, and she had him in a rear naked choke.
She had his back, and she’s attempting a rear naked choke. He overpowered her, and. But I was like, well, could you have gotten away there now, the trained person, and she went to her knife right after that because the guy overpowered her. Did you have reason, could you have gotten away from this guy with that, like, a scenario like that where she’s trained, she’s shown enough skill to get a guy and take his back.
She’s on his back and got him around. She’s got the choke half on.
We’ll say, um, again, there’s no duty to retreat, so there’s no duty for her to get away. Um, as long as she wasn’t the initial aggressor, wasn’t the one who started the altercation. So assuming that’s not the case, if she’s being overpowered or she’s fighting someone, you know, again, factors, is the aggressor someone bigger?
You know? Is the aggressor someone who looks like Derek? That’s going to be a different analysis than an aggressor who looks like me. You’re not going to feel the same threat if this guy’s coming at you as this guy’s coming at you. So, again, all those kind of factors are going to go into.
Does someone reasonably believe that you felt threatened and now you can escalate? So it started with hands. Now we’re into grappling. Now we’re into a chokehold, which is very well could be deadly force. Um, for someone who’s trained. Um, and so, you know, again, you can’t totally judge those, but my analysis, just listening to that is, yeah, she was very likely allowed to use deadly force and choke that out because in her mind, she felt.
Fear for her life. Absolutely.
And put the choke on them.
And put the choke on him to defend herself. What, uh, other option was there?
Yeah, no, that was. But then she got overpowered and now she’s losing and she goes to the knife. Still justified. But, you know, we tell people, if you can get away, get away.
Yeah, that’s smart.
That’s because it goes bad. It went well for her in the aspect of, you know, I mean, she’s winning and she’s, you know, stabbing the guy, which, you know, is a horrible thing to have to do to defend yourself. But it could have easily gone that he overpowered her because she stayed in the altercation longer.
Even though she could, she was reasonable. She could stand her ground and stay in that fight so many times. You’re just safer just getting away. You showed enough skill to get out of there.
Yeah. We’re talking about two other things. I, uh, absolutely agree. Do you want to go mortgage your house and spend $100,000 on a defense lawyer and go to trial for your life when you could have walked away? That’s the smart decision.
Yeah, walk away.
That’s what we try to extricate yourself do.
So it is good to know, though, that you do not, to your exact words, you do not have a duty to retreat. So that’s just, that’s just good to know. But great that the ethos of what you teach is if you can evade, get the hell out of there.
Yeah.
Cuz it’s just smart.
Yeah. You have the self defense fight, you have the criminal right, and then you could face the civil like that, a whole consequence of it. And those other two, it’s hot. You know, I don’t, I don’t want to be ambushed and attacked. But now that’s going on and affecting your life, even if you win, you the amount of the mental strain of being wrapped up, like a year.
How long does some of those things go?
A year? A year, hundreds of thousands of dollars. You’re going to prison. Yeah. Imagine that. Uh, if you could have walked away.
Yeah.
You just swallow your pride. Swallow.
Yeah. Yeah. Got yourself out of that. You were in that fight. Yes, I could have stayed in my ground. But you know what? Here’s an opportunity to make distance and get away.
So, uh, couldn’t agree with you. Now, if they pursue and have gotten a hold of you. Well, yeah. What choice do you have now?
Yeah, so we had that scenario that the cat was so like every scenario, context dependent. But I get into a fight, well, I don’t get in a fight. I, uh, am attacked. I’m ambushed by a guy. Or I. He starts mouthing off, and I’m saying, hey, stay away. I don’t want to fight.
But now he engages me, I get the best of him, maybe I get him on the ground, I’m holding him down, and this guy’s got a gun on him. What should I do in that scenario where he hasn’t made any attempt to go for his firearm? And as I say, he’s got every right.
In the world to be carrying that firearm. I don’t like that he got aggravated or whatever bad thing that this guy, alcohol, whatever it is that he decided to throw punches at me. But he’s got this gun in his, even in a holster. It’s not some guy carrying in his waistband.
Like, he looks like he might be a thug. This guy’s suburban. Guy got, uh, a little drunk. I say. I mean, what if this dude’s wife just left him? He knows why this dude’s angry and taking it out on you. What’s the best course of action, from a legal standpoint, of this guy being armed?
And he attacked me, and I’ve got the best of him.
I think the opinions would be different for you as an instructor in sort of real life self defense, and me as either a prosecutor or a self, you know, or a defense attorney, um, with someone on trial. So let me give you a prosecutor’s analysis. If I wanted to prosecute you for that, my analysis would be, um, okay, you were entitled to self defense.
This guy put his hands on you, you’re now allowed to, you know, show the equivalent of hands on you. So you put your hands on him. You guys now are on the ground. You’ve controlled the situation. You’ve either subdued him because you’re far superior. The guy didn’t know who he was tangling with.
Um, the question I would have for. You is, did you feel that your. Life was in threatened? If he’s face down on the ground, you’ve got him in whatever subdued hold where he can’t move. Someone’s just called 911, and you’re waiting. For the cops to show up, and you see there’s a gun on his side.
Did you feel threatened? Did your life feel threatened in that situation? If the answer is yes, you’re allowed. To use deadly force. If the answer is no, and I think a prosecutor would probably analyze you. In that situation is, did you really feel your life was a thing, threatened?
Probably not. Um, and so it was unreasonable for. You to take the gun out of his holster and shoot him in the back? That’s probably not a reasonable. Now flip that around. Say it’s not you. Say it’s me. I’m not trained in martial arts. I don’t have those skills.
This is happening very fast. And all of a sudden, as we’re wrestling, I feel. Or to see there’s a gun there. Fuck, yeah, I’m scared for my life. I don’t know where this is going. Now I realize this guy’s got a gun. That’s where he’s going next, and I.
Shoot him, it’s probably gonna be a very different analysis. Yeah. As to whether that was reasonable or context and articulation. Context driven in all the fact that’s gonna matter.
Uh, yeah. Two people out by themselves, no one around, versus a crowd around you of. Uh, all your home. Or all my homies, or here the cops are rolling up and, you know, like all those facts will be an analysis of were your decisions reasonable, were those actions reasonable?
Yeah. A lot of times when that happens in a class that we have our citizen defender class and people are practicing carrying and not forgetting that they have a firearm on. If you’re out there carrying, we see people forget that they have their firearm. It’s super easy to do.
Mhm.
Um, even when you go, all right, we did a weapons check. And you know, your training today for being out on the street with your concealed carry, and stuff happens. You’re like, oh my gosh, I forgot I had the gun on. And, yeah, but, you know, I often will tell students, I’m like, God, you just, this guy was in a simple assault with you.
He has the right to have a gun on. And now you’re disarming, aren’t you really showing that you’re upping the ante on him as it was a simple assault and now you’re pulling his gun out.
Well, again, as we went back to, again, think of that aggressor, uh, you know, defender can switch roles in combat. And so if he’s on the ground and he’s saying, I give up, I’m sorry, I give up, I stop, I stop. Now there’s an analysis. Is he the aggressor?
Are you now becoming the aggressor? You’re.
Yeah.
Uh, taking, you know, what if I.
Take his gun, point it at him, and he’s like, buddy is a concealed carry holder. Is he defending, is he defending his buddy? It makes it a whole can of worms there.
Yeah. So anytime we bring a firearm into the situation, again, the state go so fast, the speed goes really, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s a very different, um, analysis because the stakes are so high. Um, and so again, that’s why we make people take, you know, weapons class if you’re, if you’re going to carry, because it’s an enormous responsibility.
Yeah.
And the mistakes, you don’t get to recover from those mistakes the same way as fists pushing words, uh, rolling, uh, on the ground.
It’s hard to recover such high stakes. And that’s what we’ve seen by, you know, adding our citizen defender class that you need to train more. Yeah, you need to train more. You just went to your firearm and it was a simple assault. Like, yeah, you can’t just go straight to your gun there.
You just up the odds here. You, uh, are now becoming the aggressor it’s so tricky. I think, you know, that’s why. I mean, I have a gym because I think people should train. But it’s just so overwhelming the amount of people that don’t. Or they just want to fire down the range.
Yeah, but there’s all the decisions like we’re talking here. I mean, it just is endless. And that’s why we love our scenario training and doing that role playing and putting yourself in there. So if something, God forbid, does happen, you’ve got that training and at least you maybe been something similar to that versus, you know, we see people just going to their guns just so quickly when they’re not justified or they don’t even know what’s going on.
They’re just pulling their guns or don’t.
Grasp the consequences of what’s coming down the road. Having drawn a gun, it changes the analysis dramatically.
Remembering that the good guy can become the bad guy and the aggressor very quickly, I think, is really important to remember the moment that person stops. It doesn’t matter how hard they were beating the hell out of you, doesn’t matter how emotional you are. If they stop and they now, even verbally, they’re telling you they’re done and they’ve stopped, you’ve got to stop at that point.
You have to stop again. You’re still allowed to protect yourself, but if you’re now continuing to escalate, m that might not be reasonable to a prosecutor or a jury that you escalated.
Yeah, I heard one. It was like the end of 23, um, that a reporter was in fear for his life and some sort of protest. I don’t know if it was Seattle or wherever it was somewhere west coast. And he pulled his firearm on. You know, he was kind of surrounded by, uh, protesters that were angry at him for whatever reason.
I can’t even remember. But he brandished that firearm to the crowd, and I think he was facing up to, you know, seven or eight. How many people were in this immediate crowd that said, you know, he was brandishing his firearm? M now, those are tricky scenarios for concealed carry holders of, well, this guy’s maybe an immediate threat, but now I’m, um, over here to this bystander, and I’m pointing a gun at this innocent guy.
And that’s something we try to work on with our students, a ton of, you know, basic gun safety. Make sure you’re not muzzling people that are not attackers. Uh, you know, you’re swinging that gun around and it’s a cop coming at you. Yeah. Have that gone in a safe direction of some sort?
Yeah. Or someone else armed who’s coming late to the situation doesn’t know what just happened.
Yeah, that’s one of my biggest fears. I always tell people my biggest fear is the, the rookie cop, but, well, I would say first is the concealed carry Holder. They have way, way, way less training than law enforcement, but that, uh, concealed carry Holder with a rookie law enforcement, and we’re just hyped up, you know?
God, they’re seeing something and they’re in fear for their life of a gun coming around. And, man, you know, I wouldn’t blame them. That would be my reaction if a gun’s turning on me and I rolled up in a scenario and the guns coming at me. Yeah, they’re all like, as we say, train more, suck less.
You know, you gotta train more because, uh. This stuff is difficult.
Uh, thinking through working through scenarios is really good. It’s really smart. You know, if you’re going to be responsible enough to carry a deadly weapon, then the more you train with that, the better. Absolutely.
Not to mention like thinking of all the scenarios and the consequences, the gravity and the level of responsibility of just carrying a knife in public, let alone a gun. Like you have a deadly weapon on your person. Something to just being mindful of it. My dad used to, used to call knives like, like what I have on me is a knife.
Like a for real knife. And then to him there were pocket knives which were more for. As a tool.
Yeah.
To cut things open or whatever. But at the end of the day, you know, it’s, it is a deadly weapon. The knife and the gun. Yeah. Could I beat you to death with a full water bottle? Probably. But the actual deadly weapon aspect, the gravity and the level of responsibility that’s, that’s there that people, uh, especially if you just carry regularly and don’t train people.
Forget that, that, that gravity of responsibility can evade them.
I mean, the knife, it seems to be more demonized. And I’ve uh, listened other people talk about, you know, now you have a self defense blade versus the uh, swiss army knife. You know, the Amazon box that so many people have because their wives can’t open. Can’t, they can open the box but they can’t fold it up to get into recycling,
either can teenagers, you know. Is that, does that matter if I have a self defense blade on me versus my Amazon box cutter? Or. Guess it depends on utility blade.
Did you kill the person with the box cutter? Now it’s a deadly weapon, right?
I think any of it could be a deadly weapon. Um, maybe the analysis for you guys are the, are you more trained on that? You know, do you, do you have greater capability? Um, you know, because I would suspect again, we go back to, are you authorized to use deadly force?
You’ve got to be in fear, you know, imminent fear of your own death or serious bodily harm. Um, that’s probably less for you two than it is for me. I probably have more fears being untrained than the two of you do. And again, that would be something a prosecutor would think about.
Yeah.
You know, a box cutter in your hands is very different than my hand.
Yeah, I cut a lot of boxes. I’ve got surgical skills. Right.
Yeah, it’s, it’s tough. You have anything?
I, uh, know, I thought those were good. I know it’s really dragging out. I feel like I could.
Well, time flies. Yeah, I could. That’s always, uh, the thing where I have a friend that I’ve been still trying to get on the podcast. He’s like, what are we going to talk about? I’m like, well, first of all, you’re from Canada. I can make fun of you all day.
And I’m like, we talk. We don’t talk all that much, but when we do, we’re catching up. I’m like, that’s all we need to do is talk about. I mean, he owns a gym, and he does Krav Maga, he does fitness, and, you know, he’s an interesting guy. He’s like, I don’t have anything damn to talk about.
Ah.
I’m like, you’ll get on there and you won’t even know. And time flies.
So I’m just gonna say, I’m gonna start thinking differently when, uh, in our scenarios with the bad guy that’s armed, let’s say, with a knife, because I can’t tell you how many times this has happened to me. And so I’m the bad guy. I’ve got the knife, and they’ve overpowered me in training.
Drop the knife. Drop the knife. I dropped it ten punches ago, and they’re still.
Yeah.
Beating away like, you. You gotta stop. What if that. That last punch gives me brain damage and kills me? Like, yeah, things have changed. Yeah, I drop, what if there’s a silent witness, a camera, or other people see it go down? Like, you, that person stopped and dropped that weapon.
Like, now it’s gonna make me think differently.
Everything is getting recorded on a phone somewhere.
Yeah.
Everything is gonna get shut down.
Recorded. Yeah. I’ve, uh, in the last couple years, taken and trying to filter it into my training of going, get off me. I don’t want to fight you. Get off me. Get off me. M get off me. I don’t want to fight. Get off me.
Be verbal.
That’s right.
Get off me. Like, you’re hurting me.
I think the last piece of advice I would give to your listeners is after the altercation, I think your conduct is also very relevant. What you do immediately after, it really shows people what. What was going on inside your head. So if you hop in your car and take off and leave height, that’s looked differently than I was the first one who called 911.
Look guilty.
Yeah. That’s a different analysis.
Right?
Yeah, we’re gonna look at that, and that’s good. And that backs up things that I say. And our instructors say, be the first to call 911.
Always be the first to call don’t be afraid. Depending on the totality, the circumstances, don’t be afraid, even if you are the good guy, to remain silent until you retain attorney, maybe. M. Absolutely. Yeah.
You have the rights. You have those rights. They’re guarantee you use them. There is nothing wrong or that will be held against you for saying, I want to talk to my attorney.
Yeah. Or being the first.
This is a complicated area of the law. If you’re in an altercation, I always say absolutely. Get good legal counsel. There’s nothing wrong with that. That doesn’t mean you did something wrong or you’re guilty. Just means you’re educated and you’re smart and you know your rights.
Yeah. Sometimes our guys will say, well, I’m not going to call 911, whatever. Uh, a simple little fight or punch or whatever it may be, but showing that you’re a good quality citizen. Hey, well, I may be tough. I think guys feel like, well, I’m tougher. Help from the law enforcement, but at least reporting that incident, that, hey, listen, this guy punched me.
I’m safe now, but this guy started to fight with me. I just wanted on record that I got attacked.
You know, I defended murder cases that I think were righteous defenses, but I think where my clients were found either guilty or liable were sometimes their conduct after the fight, leaving the scene, not calling the cops, not being truthful, not being, you know, it’s one thing to say I’m not going to make a statement until I talk to my lawyer versus making an untruthful statement or leaving facts out.
Those are, uh, those get analyzed differently by prosecutors and a jury.
Remaining silent can’t be used against you.
Silent will never be used against you, ever.
So if you’re not sure, shut up.
Shut up.
Yeah, yeah, that’s a good. That’s a good thing for, like, uh, teenagers in schools with the bullies.
Oh, yeah.
Which we could have a whole nother podcast on.
Yes.
Yeah.
Uh, it was. I think that’s a great place to end right there. Um, it’s fantastic stuff. And again, we could go on and talk about teenagers, talk about whatever, but be an upstanding citizen and do the right thing. And you do have the right to remain silent. You know, we all mess things up.
It’s tough, uh, you know, running those scenarios. We ran a scenario one time with a guy with no. Had one shoe on and not one person. It was probably, you know, ten ish people. What was that guy wearing? What do you look like? And because of the whole altercation, not one of them picked up that he only had one shoe on.
Yeah.
And you would think this is just glaring, but all those other factors of get your wits about you, remain silent and retain good counsel. You know, we have, uh, self defense, you know, insurance for concealed carry holders and self defense that I advocate. I have it. I think I only have, like, people on our gym policy that we have a group policy on.
But, yeah, it’s better safe than sorry. I mean, it’s like all insurance, you know, it only helps you when you need it, but when you need it, man, defending, uh, yourself could, you know, ruin a lot of people’s financial well being that they’ve established in their life just by attorney fees and defending a good, a good, justified self defense situation.
Right.
All right, guys, thanks a lot for joining us. We will see you guys next time.
